Originally posted by MM:

New Zealand Sign Language one of the three official languages of New Zealand

:up: You have clever guys on your island you know !!I have always wonder if this language was universal…. but a bit difficult to experience through a keyboard with "My Opera" in fact . 🙁

FYIAccording to Oliver Sacks' own website, Seeing Voices

… begins with the history of deaf people in the United States, the often outrageous ways in which they have been seen and treated in the past, and their continuing struggle for acceptance in a hearing world. And it examines the amazing and beautiful visual language of the deaf–Sign–which has only in the past decade been recognized fully as a language–linguistically complete, rich, and as expressive as any spoken language.The existence of this unique alternative mode of language, writes Dr. Sacks, has wide-ranging implications for those in the hearing world as well, for it “shows us that much of what is distinctly human in us–our capacities for language, for thought, for communication, and culture–do not develop automatically in us, are not just biological functions, but are, equally, social and historical in origin; that they are a gift–the most wonderful of gifts–from one generation to another….The existence of a visual language, Sign, and of the striking enhancements of perception and visual intelligence that go with its acquisition, shows us that the brain is rich in potentials we would scarcely have guessed of, shows us the almost unlimited resource of the human organism when it is faced with the new and must adapt.”Sign is not only a language but the very medium of deaf culture. It stands at the center of the extraordinary social and political movement for deaf rights, which gained international attention with the uprising of deaf students at Gallaudet University in March 1988. In Part III of Seeing Voices, Dr. Sacks gives an eyewitness account of the revolt, and the students who organized it, and considers its impact on a new generation of deaf children.

I highly recommend this book. An eye opener to another, totally foreign world that has been there among us all along without us knowing about it. :up:

Glad you like it, DH :happy:

I think the guy that did all the Christchurch signing has had a lot to do with making signing popular

Originally posted by darkesthour:

I think the guy that did all the Christchurch signing has had a lot to do with making signing popular

Yes, Jeremy "the sign language guy". I'm a great fun of him, and Evelyn, his colleague. 🙂

Interesting post. :up:I know the sign language used here is different than that used in other countries. When I was a student I had an internship where I was working with a deaf gentleman for a bit. Even though he has always been deaf, he managed to learn to speak English. He told me quite a bit about the deaf culture in our country, and he inspired me to take a quarter's course on American Sign Language just to learn a bit more about what it was like.

Originally posted by debplatt:

each specific language shapes the way you think about things

Language can alter your mind. That was the theme of one of my all time top ten favourite SciFi novels, Babel-17 by Sam Delany. Great thriller and mind-boggler. Highly recommended. :yes:Originally posted by debplatt:

I vote "yes" … wait… there's no vote?

Do you have a problem with it? :pIMHO voting is overrated. I prefer direct communication to voting. ;)I will take a better look at what is being offered. Seems quite interesting at first glance. 🙂

😆 That'll destroy my facial nerves before doing anything to my mind! :p

@Olivier – :lol:I wonder if that's one of the obstacles to learning a new language – your mind isn't ready to think differently.In studying Spanish I was surprised by what a bid deal the subjunctive mood was in that language. In English it has nearly disappeared and is something of a vestigial remnant. So we English speakers must be quite cocksure of ourselves, or at least seem so to native Spanish speakers. I knew a couple where the husband was American and the wife was Columbian. He was making an effort to learn Spanish, but she confided to me that he complained how "flowery" the speech was. He hated that and just wanted to say things plainly and directly. And its been many, many years since we English speakers have had a different grammarfor addressing strangers and our social "betters" than we have for those near and dear to us. More recently we are even losing the titles of mister, missus, and miss (although "miss" is still used in the south — for instance a child might refer to me as "Miss Debbie").As to being indirect, I took an introductory course in tourist Japanese. I am under the impression that when a Japanese person explains that a suggested course of action would be "difficult," that's pretty much a flat out refusal to do it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "subjunctive mood", Deb, when you said 'In English it has nearly disappeared and is something of a vestigial remnant.' (I'm not asking what "subjunctive mood" is in language studies.) I think I still see it used quite a lot. Maybe because I read a lot more formal documents in my line of work, where the subjunctive mood is more likely used, and my personal friends are probably more likely to belong to +50 generation. It may be used less in verbal communication by the general public. Hmmm. I'll keep my ears open when I mix with the gen-pub next time :pOne can still say yes or no directly in Japanese. The question is how such statements are perceived by the listeners. My parents have always told me I say things too directly. 'You are not supposed say "No" flatly like that.' I guess that was helpful when I entered the English speaking world, though. Originally posted by debplatt:

I am under the impression that when a Japanese person explains that a suggested course of action would be "difficult," that's pretty much a flat out refusal to do it.

You have to read his/her body language. If I were taking to someone who returned such a response, I'd probably say 'What about doing it this way? Would that be possible?' If he/she still say '… that would still be difficult.' Then I take it as a no, as you said. But I would still push one more time to make sure if the answer is really a no, by saying something like, 'It's really important to me. Are you sure it can't be done?' Before I withdraw. :pOriginally posted by arduinna:

It reminds me of a conversation we had on the "you" and its degrees of politeness in different languages. Japanese is the more concerning politeness, I think.

IMO it has something to do with our history. Japan maintained strict class system for centuries, with the most powerful warrior (samurai) class freely exercised the means to kill someone on a whim. You'd have to learn how to speak politely and never upset someone in a higher class than you, when crossing such a person could result in having yourself killed …

Or get the gorilla to shoot him 😆

Like the old gorilla joke, "what do you call a big gorilla with an AK47? Sir… "

Lets hope the safety catch is on :eyes:

:yikes: Can the gorilla then release the safety catch? :rolleyes:

A trigger happy gorilla with a gun without trigger guard! That's scary. :p

:wait:While waiting, I observe those guns don't seem to have the safety catch. :rolleyes:

Or full trigger guards…

Originally posted by mimi_s_mum:

I'd probably say 'What about doing it this way? Would that be possible?' If he/she still say '… that would still be difficult.' Then I take it as a no, as you said. But I would still push one more time to make sure if the answer is really a no,

Have you considered a career in sales? :whistle:As to the subjunctive in English, it is still used in statements that are contrary to fact. But there is a danger of sounding pretentious, or worse yet, sounding like a pirate when used in other cases.For instance, I believe this is grammatically incorrect, but commonly said: "I hope he shows up." And here's the same thing written using the subjunctive. "I hope that he show up". Similarly "I hope he's home" vs. "I hope that he be home. Arrrgh!" :pirate: We've also switched from using the subjunctive to using an infinitive construction. For instance people are much more likely to say something like this: "I asked her to be quiet" instead of this: "I asked that she be quiet. Arrrgh!"

Originally posted by debplatt:

Have you considered a career in sales?

😆 Never :pI have to add that I do the second push because I am NOT good at picking up those "between the lines" implications understood by the "normal" Japanese person with "common sense", especially in verbal communication. I don't get it. So I have to ask again to make sure the answer is indeed, "no."Originally posted by debplatt:

"I hope he's home" vs. "I hope that he be home. Arrrgh!"

😆 I still don't get why the latter is so much more frustrating than the former. :p I was thinking more in line of 'It is imperative that the person remain home' vs 'He needs to stay home' 😀

Originally posted by darkesthour:

A weird one that I have come across is "off of"

It sounds to me bordering a non-native speaker mistake, by someone who rote memorised "position/movement direction word + of + place word". Or is this some archaic expression still deemed correct in a public school' dean's office?

Originally posted by darkesthour:

But you specify the of by saying bridge

You did say it's lousy grammar 😀

You know, Deb. I've spent last half an hour trying to compose a response to your comment arguing why that "of" sounded unnatural to me. All of the sudden the "of" now looks totally natural and necessary. 😆 It was one of those "mind changing" moments when I experience my mind just loosens up, moves and resets itself to form a mould in which the language pattern fits perfectly. 😎

But you specify the of by saying bridge 😀

TTFN, I gotta go work :awww: :bye:

"Sam fell of off the bridge" Which is bad grammar 😀